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TimeEnough
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:18 am    Post subject: Question regarding story Reply with quote

Hey there, I'm new; not sure if I'm even at the right place. Blade Runner has been growing on me for the past couple of months, but I'm wondering something: If Deckard is supposed to be the best blade runner, then why doesn't he know about the 4 year life span on replicants?

Thanks,
Keith

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If you have any question regarding the story, go ahead and ask here.


Last edited by TimeEnough on Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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andy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to propsummit Keith,

He has been retired for more than 4 years. Plus the only time he would have to deal with newer replicants is when they escaped from offworld. Before that, he only had to deal with older style replicants that were probably still on Earth when the ban took place. He would have no reason to learn about them.

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joberg
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome aboard Keith...good question for sure (I'm with Andy on that one Wink )
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TimeEnough
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh.. nice, and the answer progresses the story. I bet he can't get off world because of the shakes, probably. My next question is about Deckard's conversation with Bryant: D asks Bryant, "And if the machine doesn't work?". Any idea what he may be referring to? The next scene Rachel asks him if he's ever retired a human by accident, which he seems to handle badly.

Thanks for the warm welcome guys Smile

Keith


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joberg
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Voight-Kampff machine used on Replicant. First scene with Leon (begining of the movie)...later at Tyrell again but with Rachael: did Deckard was ever tested using the same questions and the V.K. machine...hence the famous debate: is Deckard a human or a Replicant?
(have fun with the last question )
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TimeEnough
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, I know he was speaking about Voight-Kampff machine, but he's speaking about something that happened badly in the past (look at Bryant's expression afterward).

As for Deckard being human or replicant, I think it's fun to see him as a replicant, but tbh, I'd rather think of him as a human (atleast for now) Smile
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Fangorn81
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most likely the answer to this question is because it's a movie. The audience doesn't know about the lifespan. Everything that the audience knows about a story they are told or show on-screen. The writers probably thought this was the best way to get in some exposition.

The whole scene where they review the replicant files feels that way to me. This is stuff Deckard probably should already know, but it is for the benefit of the audience.

Plus, if you have read DADoES the VK is a newer testing method still being tested on Nexus 6 models, Leon (or Max Polokov in the book) and Rachel are the only replicants Deckard knows the VK test has been given to when he starts hunting.
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Art Deckard
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TimeEnough wrote:
Right, I know he was speaking about Voight-Kampff machine, but he's speaking about something that happened badly in the past (look at Bryant's expression afterward).

As for Deckard being human or replicant, I think it's fun to see him as a replicant, but tbh, I'd rather think of him as a human (atleast for now) Smile


Welcome, TimeEnough.

And if the machine doesn't work?

To me, Bryant's look in response is basically 'well then we're up shit creek without a paddle'. Nexus 6 are supposed to be much harder to detect than previous models so the danger to the Blade Runner and the risk of killing an innocent are greatly increased. As for Rachael's question, I think we are simply left to wonder whether Deckard ever did 'retire a human by mistake'.

As for Deck-a-rep? Treat the thing as mere garnish on an already well crafted story and I think you'll enjoy the film much more.

Damn, I miss these conversations!

(or do I?) Wink
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The Loyalizer
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are actually a few narrative problems in this scene. And much of it depends on if you've read the book or not.

In regards to the machine not working, in the book this presents a problem for the police who will be unable to positively ID who is or isn't an android. For the company it presents a manufacturing problem because the UN will demand a halt in the manufacture of androids until a new test is found.

Deckard's question about the machine not working and Bryant's reaction to it, could imply a past incident where a false positive was generated in a test and a human was retired by mistake. That might even be why Deckard quit the business.

In terms of the film narrative, its a bit of dialogue used to imply that the new Nexus models are indistinguishable from us. But even that's a moot point in the film, because the issue of the VK Test never comes up, Deckard is shown the photos of his targets and they're confirmed as being replicants, on top of that they all attempt to kill him, thus negating any need for a VK test. The only one he tests is Rachel, and he's not tasked with retiring her until later.

In the book he didn't know what they looked like, he only had a written description, and there was a possibility that the suspect he was testing was in fact human. And in one case that's exactly how one of the androids almost manages to kill Deckard in the book, by posing as someone else.

Not that any of this diminishes the enjoyment of the film, but it does bring up some interesting questions.
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Art Deckard
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Loyalizer wrote:
There are actually a few narrative problems in this scene. And much of it depends on if you've read the book or not.


In terms of the film narrative, its a bit of dialogue used to imply that the new Nexus models are indistinguishable from us. But even that's a moot point in the film, because the issue of the VK Test never comes up, Deckard is shown the photos of his targets and they're confirmed as being replicants, on top of that they all attempt to kill him, thus negating any need for a VK test. The only one he tests is Rachel, and he's not tasked with retiring her until later.



I almost added this point to my post. It's like an echo of a key idea from the book that isn't really developed in the film. It doesn't matter in the film. I tried to put forward the argument (on Bladezone) that maybe the positive VK test was a legal requirement but then, as you say, the way Deckard deals with Zhora and co makes the whole thing moot.
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TimeEnough
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Loyalizer wrote:

Deckard's question about the machine not working and Bryant's reaction to it, could imply a past incident where a false positive was generated in a test and a human was retired by mistake. That might even be why Deckard quit the business.

I'm glad you said this Smile
Are those CG renderings yours? They are very well done. Kudos to you. I'll have to check out the book very soon.

I think I'll hold off on any more questions until I watch the movie again (a few minutes), but I wanted to add that the scene when Gaff poses as a Chinese man does well to show the power of blade runners.

p.s. thanks for the welcome Art Smile
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The Loyalizer
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep those are indeed my renderings that are linked in my sig, and thanks!

I was thinking about it some more, the whole lack of the VK test on the replicants, I wonder if this is what Ford meant when he said his character was a detective that did no detecting.
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BR12819
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take on all this is: Deckard quit in an attempt to save his marriage and because "He'd had a belly full of killing" (according to the VO). When Bryant tell's him that the Nexus 6's are the worst yet this could be in regards to their inability to be detected by the VK machine. Which is why Deckard later asks him the question about machine not working, when Bryant remains silent I assume it's because he know's Deckard may be right. I think we can infer that Bryant need's Deckard to take on the replicants because Holden was taken out of commission.
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Vader
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Question regarding story Reply with quote

TimeEnough wrote:
why doesn't he know about the 4 year life span on replicants?


For me, the answer to this was always in Bryant's tone, when he responds to Deckard's "which is what?".
I read it to imply that Deckard does know about the four-year life span, but he was not aware that its purpose is to act as a fail-safe device against replicants developing their own emotional responses.
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joberg
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I don't understand with this line of thought is this:

Tyrell Corp is manufacturing Replicant for Off-World jobs too dangerous/risky to be performed by humans.

At a certain point in time, a policy/law is developed to keep said Replicants off our planet (is it because we had previous incidents with them returning to get answers about their existance, or are they simply too dangerous to be let loose?)

Too enforce the law, the police force needs some kind of technology to test and retire these replicants, hence the Voight-Kampff machine (Tyrell would be the only manufacture capable of producing it since they know how Replicants are built).

Why would Tyrell build a Replicant/product that cannot be tested by their own technology (V.K.)?
Is it because the Replicants are getting better at passing themselves for humans and the teckies/psychologists at Tyrell cannot keep up?

It takes Deckard more than a hundred questions to uncover Rachael...but she's uncovered at the end of the interview; so the V.K./questionnaire still performs well enough

Maybe the machine is not to blame: it's the operator that needs re-training Wink
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BR12819
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

remember that Tyrell had to "gift" them with memories to "create a cushion...for their emotions" Which to me says that without memories they are incredibly unstable. And don't forget the Tyrell motto.
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TimeEnough
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is that a man as rich and intelligent as Tyrell probably has his hands in everything. Even undetectable replicants. He does say, "our motto is more human than human" -- commerce
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Vader
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joberg wrote:
Tyrell would be the only manufacture capable of producing it since they know how Replicants are built


I am not sure this necessarily follows. It's a bit like the assumption that manufacturers of drugs or explosives would be the only ones capable of building chemical "sniffers", or that only a gun maker could build airport X-ray machines. Or that only a submarine builder could make a sonar, and so on.

What I am trying to say is that it is actually quite seldom that the company that makes item A is the one most involved in developing item B, which is item A's countermeasure (into which category equipment for detecting it solidly counts).

Therefore, it might actually be the fact that a countermeasure — V-K — exists in the first place that has prompted Tyrell to develop the memory implantation technique, to counter the countermeasure. Sort of like the classical arms development race.

Another thought I've had on the subject:
As we know, in the current replicant technology, the fail-safe device against replicant instability is that they expire in a mere four years.
Now, assuming that a replicant is not cheap to buy (more like a car than a mobile phone), a four year life span can be a bit of a drawback, marketing-wise.
Developing an alternate technology to deal with the instability issue might obviate the need to limit the life span that severely. This in turn might increase the revenue potential of the product.

These two might not even be mutually exclusive.
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joberg
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keith is to blame for all that discussion taking place...see the can-o-worms he opened
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Vader
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yes ... good on him!
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